RUNE HORDES dot INFO

Midgard => Past Events => Upcoming and Ongoing Events => Pillaging! Elimination! Conquest! 2007 => Topic started by: Søren Bjerg on March 11, 2007, 04:21:55 PM

Title: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 11, 2007, 04:21:55 PM
First of all, the RUNE HORDES dot INFO Tournaments are attempts at bringing new and different kinds of organized hordewars to the community, offering a variation not yet seen in the tournaments and leagues run in the game so far.

Here's the lowdown on what the first one is going to be like:

Pillaging! Elimination! Conquest!

CONCEPT

EXECUTION

DEADLINES

POSTSCRIPT

While the idea behind the tournament might be sound in theory, I have no idea about how it will work in reality. Regardless of how it works out, it will definitely be a learning experience, and through the result it shall be known whether any future RUNE HORDES dot INFO tournaments should be arranged, when the time is right,... or plain and simply scrapped.

I do hope people will embrace the idea and give it a chance. I'm open to well thought out suggestions.

The concept of RUNE HORDES dot INFO Tournament 2007: Pillaging! Elimination! Conquest! is the intellectual property of Søren Bjerg (http://forums.runehordes.info/index.php?action=profile;u=1) and should not be plagiarised or otherwise replicated - whether in full or in gist - without written permission.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: LysB on March 12, 2007, 12:53:19 PM
Uhm i gave up 1/4 the way through thoose rules..

ima read em later but im allways down :P
make it low cal only could be sweet..
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 12, 2007, 03:08:51 PM
Uhm i gave up 1/4 the way through thoose rules.. [...]
I suppose I could cook it down to a digest :P. I just prefer the verbosity as it's more likely to fend off misconceptions.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: LysB on March 12, 2007, 04:40:45 PM
It's better to be safe than sorry.. or what ever the smart pl say.

it's always good to have the rules all specified till the last detail i'm jsut a lil to lazy to read through em atm.. ;)
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Albas on March 16, 2007, 05:35:24 AM
Players should also refrain from climbing through the ceiling in maps (e.g. Hudson and Misbegotten), picking up a weapon through a wall (e.g. Bothvar)...

These two rules are going to stop a lot of Americans from wanting to participate, since the ceiling climbing and "through wall pickups" are pretty much standard play in American servers and have been for years.  Not only that, but these actions are very difficult to enforce and often happen unconsciously, and really don't grant that big of an advantage anyways.  I would be much more comfortable signing my clan up for this tournament if that minor rule were changed.  Otherwise, it just opens too many possible cans of worms (us trouncing a euro team and then being disqualified for something one player may have done on accident).  Can you find it in your heart to change this rule, o wise and powerful Soren?
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Albas on March 16, 2007, 05:40:55 AM
Also, can you spell out exactly how Rune use is going to be handled? 

Or alternatively, you can just answer the following question.

Will each team be able to decide what their own Rune settings will be for their own individual maps?

Reason why I'm asking is your explanation seems a little bit vague on how Runes are supposed to be handled.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 16, 2007, 08:53:35 AM
Players should also refrain from climbing through the ceiling in maps (e.g. Hudson and Misbegotten), picking up a weapon through a wall (e.g. Bothvar)...

These two rules are going to stop a lot of Americans from wanting to participate, since the ceiling climbing and "through wall pickups" are pretty much standard play in American servers and have been for years.  Not only that, but these actions are very difficult to enforce and often happen unconsciously, and really don't grant that big of an advantage anyways.  I would be much more comfortable signing my clan up for this tournament if that minor rule were changed.  Otherwise, it just opens too many possible cans of worms (us trouncing a euro team and then being disqualified for something one player may have done on accident).  Can you find it in your heart to change this rule, o wise and powerful Soren?
I do believe at least the ceiling climbing can be used to grant you a significant advantage; I have many a time missed out of a kill because the opponents exploited a flaw in geometry to climb through the ceiling - effectively removing all threat against them. Also it allows you to swiftly get from point A to point C without dealing with route B and the dangers one may encounter moving along that (I know this may not be so significant in Hudson near Sigurd's Axe, but it's much more so in e.g. Misbegotten by the Broad Sword, with that location also being generally less populated than that of near Sigurd's Axe in Hudson).

But of course, if the majority would want it removed...
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 16, 2007, 09:05:21 AM
Also, can you spell out exactly how Rune use is going to be handled? 

Or alternatively, you can just answer the following question.

Will each team be able to decide what their own Rune settings will be for their own individual maps?

Reason why I'm asking is your explanation seems a little bit vague on how Runes are supposed to be handled.
I may simply just ban rune usage within the tournament - for sake of simplicity and to avoid the squabble one could imagine happening with... let's face it... European hordes when going up against American hordes.

But how it would otherwise be working would be that if a horde wanted to use runes on their home map, they could enforce runes to be enabled during the map - if they did not want to honor an opponent's possible desire not to play with runes at all. Again to enhance the feeling of being home or away...
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Albas on March 16, 2007, 05:06:40 PM
That's fair enough about the runes.  I think it would give us an unfair advantage anyways, since most Europeans don't even practice using runes.  I still disagree with you about picking up weapons through walls and wallclimbing.  The advantage granted is minor and there is no point in going against what the majority of Rune players already do.  I agree with you about jump/slide pickup and I hope the tournament can be run almost entirely on 1.08 servers, but once again, many players are not used to playing Rune without using the wallclimbing or by picking up weapons through walls.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Albas on March 17, 2007, 05:09:12 PM
Soren, thank you for making this tournament and listening to my suggestions!   >:D

Looking forward to signing up for this as soon as sign-ups are available.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 17, 2007, 05:17:39 PM
No problem, I saw that I had to suppress some of those pet peeves of mine and not lay down too many restrictions from the "mainstream" way of playing :).
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Urlor Jkron on March 18, 2007, 06:51:43 AM
Quote
The winner of the battle and thus the horde to advance in the tournament is logically enough the horde to have won the most rounds (in this case the horde to win both of the rounds in a battle). In case of a tie between the rounds, the winning horde is the horde with the highest cumulative frag count.

This greatly favors TDM over another game type. Previously you encouraged different game types:

Quote
The map can be chosen from a range of available game types such as Team Deathmatch, Arena, Headball and Capture The Torch. The hordes can thus choose a map to play in, which favours their preferences in playing the game.

Something should be changed to create a balance between the game types, or limit it to one game type. Perhaps averaging the K/D of each match instead (or points in CTT HB or SB).
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 18, 2007, 07:32:23 AM
Or how about the two hordes play a third round with a random game type and map to settle the battle?
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 18, 2007, 09:27:10 AM
Ok, here's the deal; to simplify the tournament somewhat, the valid game types of this first one is going to be limited to Team DeathMatch only. Sure this may put a damper on things, as the tournament won't quite be as initially advertised - in terms of freshness and innovation (and other such buzzwords), but depending on how well or bad it goes, further RHI Tournaments may include, exclude or be limited to other game types.

I hope this won't cut off hordes from participating because they had planned on going AR, CTT or HB.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Virus on March 19, 2007, 06:18:49 PM
The maps chosen as home maps should be either official or third party maps, which work well in a team oriented environment and have been publicly and easily available for at least three months (for the sake of fairness; so hordes do not end up with newly created/previously secret maps only they know and have used to perfect their team play with -- despite the tournaments general desire to enhance the feeling of "home and away").

Will there be a list of third party maps allowed? To avoid confusion and endless discussions with other clans about map choice.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 19, 2007, 06:36:08 PM
To begin with that was my plan, but as I know jack-shit about maps suitable for team play, I scrapped the idea. However, I can't imagine many hordes straying from the "default" maps in rotation on the servers, even though one of my hopes with the tournament were to see more "exotic" maps in play.

If too much squabble arise, I suppose the tournament could be tied up more by setting up map limitations... but before doing so, I'd like to put faith in the decisions of the hordes about choosing maps with high playability and suitability for team play. Sure, it reeks of naiveness...
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vindal on March 21, 2007, 09:21:07 PM
This tournament sounds really interesting.

I'll post about this on our forum, and lets hope my horde will be up for this. thank you...

Short sign-up deadline, though  :(
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 22, 2007, 07:04:17 AM
No worries, it'll be extended by another week, so it's April 1st instead of March 25th.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Virus on March 25, 2007, 03:30:52 PM
Btw, I think advertising the tournament in clan forums might be a good way to get more clans signed up.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 25, 2007, 03:56:00 PM
*sigh*

Yeah, I'll probably have to resort to that, despite my disgust for spam.

Ideally the in-game news, community forums (the official forums, IRCC and such places) and word of mouth would have done the trick, but probably is to ask for too much :-\\.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vileslayer on March 25, 2007, 07:17:40 PM
I can help you a bit if you want me to
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: DAD.tika on March 26, 2007, 02:23:54 AM
We're considering sign up at BDL atm. Maybe the deadline should be extended a bit further ...
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 26, 2007, 05:53:38 AM
There's a week left still... how much further do you have in mind? Ideally I would like the tournament to begin some time this year ;).
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Emperor on March 26, 2007, 03:07:16 PM
Quote
(depending on the interest shown in the tournament as well as the reliability of the hordes wanting to participate)

That's quite an interesting sentence, I'm wondering who will be seen as reliable and who's seen as unreliable. Depending on that judgement, <)WTN(> might wake up once more to participate in this tournament.
Although we initially did not want to play wars any more -as a reaction against the use of cheats these days- we might put aside our hatred and suspicion against certain clans, and give it a try. Once more depending on who exactly will be participating.

So if we decide to support this great initiative, by participating, we will probably sign up  around 1 April, so we know exactly who is and who is not participating.

No matter what the outcome may be (participating or not) we appreciate the work you put into this tournament and we'll keep our fingers crossed, so it turns out to be a big success.

Kind regards
<)WTN(>Emperor
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Attila on March 26, 2007, 05:54:11 PM
There's a week left still... how much further do you have in mind? Ideally I would like the tournament to begin some time this year ;).

Yeah but man.. only four clans are currently registered. That's an awfully small tourney.. heh. It looks like a blast too, we are looking forward to it. Haven't played any wars in a while over at JuNN, the Horde died for a bit but we are back in force now. I'm really hoping some more Clans decide to commit to this.

 ;D
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 26, 2007, 06:10:09 PM
Quote
(depending on the interest shown in the tournament as well as the reliability of the hordes wanting to participate)
That's quite an interesting sentence, I'm wondering who will be seen as reliable and who's seen as unreliable. [...]
I knew that formulation would eventually come back and bite me in my behind. What I wanted with it, was to get hordes to take a look at themselves, and decide if they found their horde and the members within it to be reliable enough to sign up for the commitment a tournament like this would be to them; would they take it seriously and play the matches they would be up for... or don't think much of it and just abandon it when/if the interest fades, leaving matches to be played unplayed... as seen to be the case in most of the recent events organized in the game (just take a look here (http://forums.runehordes.info/index.php?board=43.0)).

There's a week left still... how much further do you have in mind? Ideally I would like the tournament to begin some time this year ;).
Yeah but man.. only four clans are currently registered. That's an awfully small tourney.. heh. [...]
Very true, but that's (hopefully) because I've not yet started spamming the horde forums, begging them to come sign up inviting them to participate in the tournament ;). But to be fair, the deadline should probably be extended to a week after I get around to get that done.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vileslayer on March 26, 2007, 08:33:19 PM
Quote
(depending on the interest shown in the tournament as well as the reliability of the hordes wanting to participate)

That's quite an interesting sentence, I'm wondering who will be seen as reliable and who's seen as unreliable. Depending on that judgement, <)WTN(> might wake up once more to participate in this tournament.
Although we initially did not want to play wars any more -as a reaction against the use of cheats these days- we might put aside our hatred and suspicion against certain clans, and give it a try. Once more depending on who exactly will be participating.

So if we decide to support this great initiative, by participating, we will probably sign up  around 1 April, so we know exactly who is and who is not participating.

No matter what the outcome may be (participating or not) we appreciate the work you put into this tournament and we'll keep our fingers crossed, so it turns out to be a big success.

Kind regards
<)WTN(>Emperor

Nice words, Emp, very nice!
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on March 27, 2007, 03:36:16 PM
HoV-playing hordes having updated their RHI profile within the last month - with an accessible (and working*) forum - have now been invited to sign up for and participate in the tournament. This sign up deadline has thus been extended to 8th April, and this date is final. The next phase is to begin on 9th April.

* seems like my runehordes.info e-mail address is banned at the Nosebleed forum (for whatever reason that might be!), the Intoxicated forum just redirected me to the board index without doing anything after trying to register a new username and the PkP site and forum has gotten suspended by their host.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: SemteX on March 27, 2007, 05:09:29 PM
the Intoxicated forum just redirected me to the board index without doing anything after trying to register a new username

I just tryed to register a new account. Everything worked fine, I dont know if someone else got this Problem.
We will discuss that, although I havent not understand the rules 100% yet. We'll see if we take part, though it sounds very interesting and exacting.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: DAD.tika on March 28, 2007, 04:32:31 AM
Hey Søren, your good work is appreciated as allways :)

Main problem for BDL is there are about 5 or 6 active wargaming members involved in TNG still. It would be too much for most of them to do a second contest in parallel.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Alternative on March 28, 2007, 09:59:01 AM
sry for that soren, but the forum got flooded for some time with members havin *@*.info mail-adresses  >:(
if u still like to take a look in our forum... it's possible now  :-)

unfortunatly we're having a lack of active players... I hope this will be better until signin ends...
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Timberwolf on March 29, 2007, 07:41:16 AM
WHY, OH WHY are the tournaments ALWAYS in the periods where I am the most BUSY!?  :\'(

Nevermind. I suck and I have no clan.  ;)

But I could spam a few forums and other places about it though.

If it's going to be TDM you could always get inspiration from the RCL rules.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Emperor on April 02, 2007, 12:52:17 PM
Are those clans, listed in the 'Declarations of war' topic, accepted?

Emperor
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on April 02, 2007, 12:58:27 PM
Aye, the hordes listed in this topic (http://forums.runehordes.info/index.php?topic=341.0) are the hordes to play in the tournament.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Emperor on April 02, 2007, 05:02:32 PM
We are aware of the fact you need 8 clans to make this tournament work, without these clans it's not even possible to make two groups, thus you can't start.
We really want to help you out and make it work, but we can't take back everything we've said, we can't pretend nothing has happened.

To cut the bullshit, we can't participate in a tournament where we would be obligated to face clans, we see as unreliable. Ioe, for example, is a clan we don't want to grant the fun of playing wars, surely not against us.

We don't want to make it any harder for you, than it already is Soren, so you don't have to make a choice. We won't participate. I do hope you find 8 clans though, if you'd have 8 -reliable- clans we could replace IOE, I'm sure none of the other competitors would mind that.

Good luck with it. You have our (moral) support

EDIT: It's not my intention to start a discussion with IOE or any other clan in here. We've had far too many. I'm not attacking a member in particular, but the clan as a whole although we are also aware there are clean players in IOE. But you play as a clan.. So please, no replies with that content, they are useless and I won't even bother to read them.
EDIT 2: The 4 clans mentioned in your 'official' list, Soren, are for us reliable enough to face. Just a side note.

Emperor
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on April 02, 2007, 05:11:30 PM
[...] without these clans it's not even possible to make two groups, thus you can't start. [...]
Groups? Groups?! This ain't a fancy pansy league... but a tournament according to the double elimination scheme :P. It would be possible to start up the tournament with a minimum of five hordes, but the length (amount of battles) would then be laughable in comparison to eight hordes, which will also give all participating hordes a battle to fight in the first round of the tournament.

[...] We won't participate. [...]
Fair enough... and thanks :).
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Emperor on April 02, 2007, 05:30:01 PM
Quote
Groups? Groups?! This ain't a fancy pansy league... but a tournament according to the double elimination scheme :P.

oh excuuuuuussssseee meeh!  >:D
Quote
Fair enough... and thanks :).
You're welcome, just make this one work  ;) Not for us, but for the sake of the community.
Ciao!
Emperor
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Virus on April 02, 2007, 05:45:15 PM
This sign up also puts Rage in an awkward position. We have always denied cw's vs Impostors clans for the same reason as WTN, and now we have to face him if we stay in the tournament. To be honest I hoped he wouldn't sign in. But for now we are not sure of what to do.
As I stated in the rage forum, I don't have any problems with the rest of you guys that I know.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vileslayer on April 03, 2007, 08:46:25 PM
Awie Emperor, that are pretty sad news, but I think everyone appreciates your nice words man!
I think that I'm speaking for everyone in soc..we feel honored that you trust in our loyality.  :)
Maybe we can arrange some fight outside the tournament, it would be a pleasure.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Albas on April 04, 2007, 07:28:40 AM
To Virus and Emperor...

You guys sound like a bunch of pussies.  Run anti cheat on your server and make sure they run it on theirs.  Problem solved.  To me you just look like a bunch of cowards who are just afraid of getting your ass kicked legitimately by a person/clan you don't like.  The tournament will be better without you!

Think I'm wrong?  Play in the tournament and prove it.  By turning and running you disgrace your clans more than if you were to simply lose.

Cowards!
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Emperor on April 04, 2007, 08:34:11 AM
To Virus and Emperor...

You guys sound like a bunch of pussies.  Run anti cheat on your server and make sure they run it on theirs.  Problem solved.  To me you just look like a bunch of cowards who are just afraid of getting your ass kicked legitimately by a person/clan you don't like.  The tournament will be better without you!

Think I'm wrong?  Play in the tournament and prove it.  By turning and running you disgrace your clans more than if you were to simply lose.

Cowards!

It's not about losing or winning, it's about principles. If you would have followed what goes around in the community or what went around, you'd understand. We've made a statement some time ago, it would be a disgrace to ignore it now. I'd love to play and spill blood, it has been way too long. But I'd rather do that against clans I trust, that's not too much to ask, is it?

I'd even sign up just to help Sören out, I wouldn't like to see this one die because only 7 clans signed up and one clan was too stubborn to sign up with them. So if that would be the case, we will participate and we will spill your blood. But if we have the choice we will not. And Albas, don't worry too much about Rage, they will play, I'm quite sure of that.. So if you feel like provoking, provoke <)WTN(> because we're the only 'cowards' around here. ;)

Aye, you're more then welcome Vile, I still care about this community. All the best in the tournament! About that war, sure.. You have my msn, we'll be glad to help you out, getting your skills up before the start of the tournament, we'll be helping Rage with that too ;). I'm glad to see we're worthy enough to be training partners.

//Emperor
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Avarice on April 04, 2007, 01:47:39 PM
Albas...Pretty much every server is running with anti-cheat mutators, and yet it doesn't really seem to prevent the cheaters from cheating. RRA was made and it was hacked pretty quickly, from what I heard. I don't see how it's cowardice to not want to play a certain or some certain clans because you don't trust them. Our community should be about trust, in my opinion. The community is supposed to stand together, and that's why I feel it's needed to be able to trust the clans. Although I am a former member of ioe, I don't think any of them cheat. And even if they do, I don't care that much about it. Sure, you can say just play against them and beat them or lose against them. It's an option, I agree. But let's make an example here..If you don't trust me as a person, would you confide in me? Would you say things to me that you'd only tell your best friends? I know I wouldn't. Soc is going to play against ioe, that's for sure. I've also told my fellow clansmen in soc, that I most likely won't participate in this tournament. But it got me thinking that I might just play a few of the matches here. Bottomline...Nobody should feel forced to do something they don't want to, in my opinion. Take it or leave it but I at least hope you can understand where both Rage and WTN are coming from with this because I most certainly do. It should be an individual choice, although it's kind of difficult in a tournament. But do not call them cowards or "pussies" because they don't feel they can trust a clan or at least someone in the clan. It's just that they don't trust them and that's fair.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Albas on April 04, 2007, 09:45:18 PM
Albas...Pretty much every server is running with anti-cheat mutators, and yet it doesn't really seem to prevent the cheaters from cheating. RRA was made and it was hacked pretty quickly, from what I heard. I don't see how it's cowardice to not want to play a certain or some certain clans because you don't trust them. Our community should be about trust, in my opinion. The community is supposed to stand together, and that's why I feel it's needed to be able to trust the clans. Although I am a former member of ioe, I don't think any of them cheat. And even if they do, I don't care that much about it. Sure, you can say just play against them and beat them or lose against them. It's an option, I agree. But let's make an example here..If you don't trust me as a person, would you confide in me? Would you say things to me that you'd only tell your best friends? I know I wouldn't. Soc is going to play against ioe, that's for sure. I've also told my fellow clansmen in soc, that I most likely won't participate in this tournament. But it got me thinking that I might just play a few of the matches here. Bottomline...Nobody should feel forced to do something they don't want to, in my opinion. Take it or leave it but I at least hope you can understand where both Rage and WTN are coming from with this because I most certainly do. It should be an individual choice, although it's kind of difficult in a tournament. But do not call them cowards or "pussies" because they don't feel they can trust a clan or at least someone in the clan. It's just that they don't trust them and that's fair.

I am fully aware of the justification for not wanting to play.  However, coming from a clan (ROV) that has constantly been accused of cheating, I feel that I understand full well what the players in IOE are going through.  You personally come from IOE and you do not believe they cheat, so you understand where I am coming from here.  Let's look at the facts.

1.  People assume IOE players cheat because they get good scores (110-30) and are very difficult to kill.
2.  People run server side protection such as RRA and TRBP along with version 1.08 and it still doesn't seem to prevent them from running their "cheats".
3.  Many clans and players who do not cheat have often been accused of cheating in the past, myself and my clan included.

Perhaps the problem here is not the anti-cheat protection, but the players who are accusing IOE itself of cheating.  It seems like you have no proof that any of them are cheating other than the fact that they are difficult to kill and that they get good scores.

Now you are saying you don't "trust" them and you want them eliminated from the tournament.  To me it just seems like it is the weaker clans who are ganging up on the better players, like has happened in the past and what will probably continue to happen in the future.  You should always be careful that you don't accuse people of cheating because their gameplay has reached a level of complexity higher than you can understand.  Just because you can't do it, it doesn't mean that others can.  I remember when people first found out about the jump spin.  Accusations of cheating flew left and right, but it was just because people didn't see the part of the jump attack animation where the weapon sticks out to the left.  Now nobody would accuse axe jumpers of cheating.

Come on Avarice... tell me you don't agree with me.  So far all I have heard are stories and baseless accusations.  I have seen NO hard evidence in the forms of demorecs, chatlogs, or programs that sniff out keybinds commonly used to run cheat programs.  Until I see these things, I will consider those clans that refuse to play in this tournament because of IOE to be a bunch of weak cowards... not because I am throwing around insults, but because they are weak and cowardly by definition.  Get evidence and change my mind.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Gorm on April 04, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
and yet the easiest way to solve all these problems were to for the" accusased" to publish there user.files + the rune.int
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on April 05, 2007, 07:38:48 AM
and yet the easiest way to solve all these problems were to for the" accusased" to publish there user.files + the rune.int
Not really. It's not exactly difficult to clean up such files before submission, should they contain content related to cheating and exploitation.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Emperor on April 05, 2007, 10:33:21 AM
Maybe you're getting this all wrong Albas, we don't need you to approve or anything. Nonetheless, I'll take some time to reply, if you accuse someone you better explain it as well.

Quote
1.  People assume IOE players cheat because they get good scores (110-30) and are very difficult to kill.
2.  People run server side protection such as RRA and TRBP along with version 1.08 and it still doesn't seem to prevent them from running their "cheats".
3.  Many clans and players who do not cheat have often been accused of cheating in the past, myself and my clan included.

Point one is just silly, of course that's not the reason why we assume he's cheating.. Otherwise we'd be accusing our clanmates as well.
About point two, I'd like to believe they run well, yet I've heard too many rumours about it being hacked.
You have a point when you say lots of innocent people has been accused, and I pity that, I've been a victim myself and I know it's not anywhere near fun to be accused of something you haven't done. That's why, in general, I tend to look the other way and keep my mouth shut when I see another player moving strange. Because you can never be a 100% sure, can you?

Quote
Perhaps the problem here is not the anti-cheat protection, but the players who are accusing IOE itself of cheating.  It seems like you have no proof that any of them are cheating other than the fact that they are difficult to kill and that they get good scores.
Our reaction is justified, it’s not based on any proves but our eyes, proves are useless anyway, they can be denied easily. There are shots though, like this one (Insert link). But it’s easy to say ‘that’s not me on it’. So you’ll have to do it with our word. Vileslayer can insert the shot if he wants to. But what does it say? Indeed, nothing at all.

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You should always be careful that you don't accuse people of cheating because their gameplay has reached a level of complexity higher than you can understand.  Just because you can't do it, it doesn't mean that others can.
I agree with you, that's why I'm willing to drop the accusations against Gore, because I've been told he's just that good. Respect then, I've got no problems facing someone better than me, not at all. Imposter just moves in degrees and that's not possible with normal settings. All you have to do is look at him, doesn't take more than that.

What really bothers me though, is that once again I'm the one who has to do all the writing. Christ, I only play a couple of hours a month, why don't you others open your mouths? If you can do it in a private conversation, you better do it in here as well, because I'm not going to put anymore effort in this. I've had it with these kind of topics. Would be neat if we could all just be friends and play a fair tournament. I'm even willing to give them the chance to play fair, don't betray our trust then.
It's out of my hands now, I'll talk to Virus and Soc* later on and we'll decide what to do.

//Emperor
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vileslayer on April 05, 2007, 11:08:34 AM
I think you almost said it all, what are shots and demos good for?  ??? They can be denied anyways
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Avarice on April 05, 2007, 01:13:54 PM
Demorecs can be of someone faking that certain person. Shots..Also just faked...

But Albas..Have you ever played against Impostor? Because if you haven't, then I don't see how you can say that it can't be true. Like you I've also been accused of cheating, when I was in ioe and now in soc. But play against him first and see if it doesn't seem a bit strange, in the way he plays. Also another fact to why I don't really trust him that much, is that he's had several cheaters in his clan(s). But my point is, if you haven't played against him then I don't see why you'd defend him. We've both been accused of cheating but you don't see me defending him like I have in the past, even after I was KICKED out of ioe. Reason why I did, was because I was a fool just because I wanted to get back into ioe. But Lanza has been in several clans with Impostor. You don't have to believe me or any of us or our accusations if you don't want, and we do not want to force you to believe us. Draw your own conclusions, but at least think that there might be some sense to what we're saying.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vindal on April 05, 2007, 01:50:15 PM
I think I’d done the same as WTN, SoC and Rage if I were them. Unfortunately I’ve not been in this game long enough for me to judge such things as cheats, moves and so on. I don’t think there’s any point in letting cheaters play, so I’m feeling WTN and their boycott against those they don’t trust.

On the other hand, I’d like some evidence too, though I know it’s pretty difficult to get.

Called dilemma?
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Mata on April 05, 2007, 03:01:34 PM
It doesn't matter if they cheat or not.
IF they're experied cheater and know how to stay undetected, you can't proove it anyway.
So this discussion is...senseless ?
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vileslayer on April 05, 2007, 06:51:57 PM
No its not because if you have people on suspect you shouldn't face them in a cw, should you?
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vindal on April 05, 2007, 08:09:24 PM
It doesn't matter if they cheat or not.

It does matter.

So this discussion is...senseless ?

I really think it'd be a pity to see Rage, soc and WTN abandon this tournament, don't you think Mata?
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Nømad on April 05, 2007, 10:25:42 PM
'ello. Decided to drop by and read through this thread after hearing it being mentioned on the ioe forum.

As the european players most likely know, I've been in both AROC (Chaotical) as Wyvern and IOE as Blight. You most likely also know I was a cheater, and at this point I suspect people will stop reading my post. Understandable. This post has content that may be seen as inappropriate by some, and I advice sensitive readers to turn away their eyes for a few minutes and start humming "Little drummer boy".

Now, to the point.
I am one of the people who's given Imp the reputation he has now (By being in his clan not once, but twice!), together with Ani (Manticore/Flesket/Seraphim) and Lanza (Behemoth/Valthor). I find it a little unfair to start stoning my former clanmates (And Imp in particular) simply because they were dumb enough to fraternize with us. Neither Imp nor my other old clanmates had any idea of what I or Ani were doing. We cathergorically denied it all like any self-preserving shady character would do. You might think that Imp should've seen it coming with Lanza (him being a repeated offender), but Imp believes strongly in second chances. And third. And fourth. The thing is, he has this odd idea that people can change. Don't know where the hell he got that from.

Europeans might want to skip this part, just filling the americans and uninvolved players in.

Let us start with the AROC example. This was when me and Ani began our shady carreers. It started with me finding some fishy stuff in RuneEd, stuff that me and Ani took for a spin. Then it evolved into a more focused search, as we were intrigued by the "forbidden fruit". Through this, Imp was entirely unaware of what me and Ani were doing. Gradually, we started testing the ground a little and checking for partners. We had a little circle going on there, in which we shared some of the less agreeable contents of rune. I won't mention any names at the moment, since that'd only evolve into another "He said, no she said"-dicussion. I will, however, assure you folks that NONE of the current members of IOE were involved in ANY way. My word only goes so far, but that's the best I can give you.
Eventually, the bubble burst and some members of our circle decided to go public with the whole deal and expose the rest of us. Some of us went unpunished, others decided to quietly disappear. But most of us, I believe, were discouraged and cut the crap out in order to avoid catching further unwanted attention.

Now, me and ani left rune after AROC. Then, a few months later, Imp approached us via PMs on some forum (don't remember which) and asked us to return to rune, and join IOE. Both me and Ani had abandoned the shady ways of the underworld after the little scandal, and Imp was fully aware of that fact, and thought we deserved a second chance, us going quite a way back after all. Ani was a good friend of Lanza, and still is, and I just more or less agreed with most of what Ani said since I didn't really care all that much. So we fed Imp with a wagonload of "Lanza has changed, he's a good guy, just one more chance" and all that, and eventually he gave in to the pressure, and Valthor joined up. All went well for a while there, but trouble follows in Lanza's footsteps, and people were starting to see the connection between ioe and AROC. To this day, I'm not sure about wheter or not Lanza actually *did* cheat at that time, but we were all pals, so I decided not to press the matter any further. After some fight or something, Lanza decided to leave rune, and Ani kind of went with him. We continued to support Lanza due to the fact that we had not seen any real evidence of his continued cheating, apart from the usual accusations in-game. Then Lanza decided to start faking our members and crashing our server for some reason, and that stopped too.

End of history lesson.

Conclusion; AROC = Yes, lots of cheaters in there.
IOE = Former cheaters, a few. Current cheaters, none.

As for Imp's style in-game, yes, it does look fishy to someone who's not familiar with how he's gotten it. I've spent countless hours exercising in-game with him in different ways, and he never quits training until he's mastered whatever he's currently looking to master.
If I had demoreced any of it, I could show you, but I doubt it'd do much good anyway. Imp's a nerd, oh yes. A big one. But he is *NOT* a cheater.

Only I may claim that title.

Now thank you for listening, good sirs, and fare thee well once more.
(Also, the sensitive readers may start looking again now)

Edit: Gah, got so worked up about righting the wrongs that I forgot the on-topic part.
If rage or WTN decide not to participate, it's their loss. Not your problem. They deserve no special treatment for being difficult to deal with. If anything, they should be whipped for misdemeanour.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Gorm on April 05, 2007, 11:13:54 PM
either way we cant say, they arnt allowed. fact is no one here actually has proof that ioe has cheats.
meaning we cant just ban them for surspecsions, if that was the case, I would just have to say i dont want WTN to play because i dont like there leader.

fact is that lets stop this kindergarden attitude? gets os nowhere. get a grip or get lost?
fase the truth beat them instead of whining. and no im still a strong beliver that something is wrong. but I cant prove it. so ive stopped trying to cut them out. and instead holster my weapon so I can train my abillites instead. you all should do the same instead of whining about who cheats and who doesnt.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vileslayer on April 05, 2007, 11:22:07 PM
[...]
http://z11.invisionfree.com/Incarnations_of_Evil/index.php?showtopic=42
This topic is becoming exactly the same as the topic at the ioe forums...
Maybe we should stay ON topic now :)
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Impostor on April 06, 2007, 11:41:39 PM
Yep, we should get back to the topic title which was an introduction to this tournament.

If WTN wishes not to participate it's their problem.

We're 8 teams now nevertheless. I like your words on ioe forum, Emperor by the way.
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Vileslayer on April 07, 2007, 05:12:34 PM
By the way, what happens if you lose your homemap to a clan that has already got 2 homemaps?
Title: Re: Introduction to the tournament
Post by: Søren Bjerg on April 07, 2007, 05:33:25 PM
By the way, what happens if you lose your homemap to a clan that has already got 2 homemaps?

[...] A horde is only allowed ownership of a maximum of two maps at any given time, so if a horde gains ownership of a third map, it has to be decided which of the maps to discard (and effectively make unavailable for the remainder of the tournament). [...]